Region 2 debacle

[nwwrestler07]

I posted this here as well, as on VA Wrestling everyone keeps getting database connections errors. Here we go

Being sort of an unofficial spokesperson for Region 2 for close to 10 years now, and having attended the tournament every year since the nimble age of 14, I have got to tell you, I am getting sick and tired of how things are being ran at some of these tournaments. Before my rant here, I would like to say this is the first time since 08’ that my team had 0 chance of winning nor did I have a little brother in the tournament, so I would like to think that my argument here is very unbias.

If you have seen the results and looked at the scores, you will notice that Fauquier won the tournament, with Skyline and Loudoun County tied for 2nd three points behind. First and foremost I would like to extend congratulations to Fauquier on wrestling very tough, and earning enough points to win how they did, it was a great bounce back after losing to Brentsville the week before. Here’s where the problem lies;

1. My biggest problem all tournament long was probably the end of the consolation semifinals match between Sun of LC and Tingen of FQ at the 126 lb weight class. Tingen was up 6-4 with about 45 seconds left, Sun riding tough on top. Sun starts a nice little tilt series, with Tingen fighting hard to avoid backs. Turned 2-3 times, all being one counts, which was fine. Finally, with about 7-10 seconds left, Sun finally gets him over and keeps him there and time expires, no points! Now, in my opinion it was a 3 count, for sure. If the ref wanted to take the easy way out, he could have said 2 and let the wrestlers decide in overtime. What happens instead? He swipes for the different one counts and no points rewarded. Awful. Was even told the FQ coach apologized afterwards, but still.

2. Skyline is wrestling in the consi round at 152 where their wrestler, Santmyers, puts a wrestler to his back in overtime, and was not rewarded the opportunity to pin his opponent. Now, we would think that sense the TA/BD debacle in 06 our area refs would have the common knowledge instilled within them that a match does not end in overtime. Guess not. Let’s also consider the fact that this same ref tried ending the Evergreen finals match in 2OT last week (before the ride out) once one wrestler escaped. Terrible!

3. Finally, in a touchier subject, the call make in the finals at 132. Jacobs escapes from bottom on Raines from Fauquier. About 10 seconds left in the period, Raines stands straight up, in bounds, I guess just trying to wait for the period to end. Jacobs sees this and attacks. Unfortunately it resulted in a head on collision causing Raines to be knocked out. Now, seeing as all action taking place was legal, in bounds, time not expired, and it wasn’t a malicious, I don’t get how this results in FQ winning by injury default. This means not only does FQ win the match, but gets the bonus points as well. These same refs decided just a few hours earlier when the Woodgrove kid knocked out the Sherando heavy in the consolation semifinals(all unintentional and within boundaries as well) to reward the match to Woodgrove. Maybe it’s because they are scared because the crowd gave a couple ooh’s and ahh’s because the crowd was actually paying attention this time?

The final result should have been Loudoun County first, Skyline 2nd, and FQ 3rd. This is the 3rd time in 8 years we have had the wrong region champ because of officiating in 8 years. First with Brentsville not being able to pin in overtime at 215 in 06’ and with Millbrook getting a walk to the finals at 112 instead of probably going 1-2, because they were scared of Haines in questionable calls costing James Wood the tile, and now this. When does it end? When do the right teams get to celebrate? I understand that I seem bitter, but I have no strings attached. I just want to see the right calls made. If Skyline and Loudoun County do not receive personalized apologies from this crew of men they call officials, then I would like to apologize right now for them.

[Mosca]

Whats your favorite blown call of the weekend? Here's mine: Strum takes down Smith and is awarded backs all in less than two seconds. When the assistant ref (who just happened to be a former long time Fauquier head coach) is asked if time had expired, he says no even though his back was to the clock.

[nwwrestler07]

You know.. I would have to agree that if they're going to say that was backs, there's no way you could go and say Sun got 0 at 126. Also notice that all 3 of these blown tournaments took place in Loudoun County? Shouldn't they be able to afford better officiating? Also that same ref blew the Santmyers call, this was at the point when everyone started realizing that Fauquier and Skyline were back in it.

[LCTObserver]

I'm glad someone has wrote something about this finally. Everyone was frustrated after leaving the Region 2 tournament regardless of team affiliation. It's sad when a whole gym boo's a ref because of a terrible call, none the less twice in one day. Of course, refs have the hardest job in the gym, they are constantly under the microscope of two opposing programs, if not a whole gymnasium. With that said, that does not excuse such atrocious calls that occurred this weekend. How do we solve these issues? Can we send film into VHSL of the terrible calls and hope for the best? How about this former Fauquier coach that has blown two calls in favor of his former program, could we gather tape and send that to ensure he will not be in place to do that again? I do not believe Fauquier was conspiring together to win a tournament, but there could have been favoritism that played a role on the mat from the ref.

As far as my favorite blown call this weekend: Although I completely respect the kid for working hard to come back, Zimmerman all weekend rode a reverse turk that should have been called stalling every single match. There was no working for a turn in any of those matches. Finally, it was called in the finals.

I believe there was an excess of injury time used in a few matches. Maybe I'm just from the old school.

Other than that, the only remaining question I have is, where is out of bounds any more? Tons of take downs blown on the edge of the mat. Why can't we define what is considered out of bounds and have consistent calls. I thought they had a rule book for that and a big circle to define it, but what do I know?

[LastChance]

I clearly agree with the guru. I felt that LC got robbed on a few times during the tournament. And it seem these ref's are not held accountable for the actions. There should be some type of disciplinarian action in place for their error's? LC was the best team in R2 Joel Caruso knows it and those who are not bias know it as well. And there were some un-sports man like conduct that went on as well. Case in point Hulcher's semi final match.

[A Coach]

I agree with everything that was said about the officiating. However when I first read what was written it said "how the tournament was run". Then I realized he was talking about the refs (and was right). That being said I thought that John Champe ran the tournament incredibly well. The coaches were treated professionally and with respect. Loved being given updated brackets after each round (including mat assignments). The finals were very well done (loved the spotlight!). Also with the exception of one of the later rounds, we started exactly when it was announced, 10 minutes meant 10 minutes.

[Coach K]

I have to disagree with the 132 match. From where I was sitting it was a blatant cheap shot the kid took on Raines and may have warranted an ejection. The guy took a running start at him and nailled him in the head.

[Coach K]

In regards to Zimmerman, it was obvious that he was hurting. He was building leads with takedowns and then trying to sit on leads. Sometimes that is what you have to do even if you are winning ugly. I felt like his coach made a bad decison putting Zimmerman down instead of staying neutral in the second. He was pretty successful getting takedowns.

[JDObserver]

I hate this website - all you "guru's" and "old school" people do is get on here and talk trash about KIDS!! I can see talking about the blown calls or how a tournament is run but to all out talk trash is purely ridiculous - how about naming the next forum "trash talk" instead of Region 2. You have no clue how hard all of those kids work and strive to be the best they can on and off the mat.

[R2D2]

Wow. You would criticize his coach for putting him bottom in the 2nd? It was 4-4, and the Sherando kid took Zimmerman down after escaping the one takedown that occurred in the 1st. I think most coaches would go "down" in that situation. I don't know if the kid is only good on his feet, but, if you are thinking of an accomplished wrestler, my thought would be that he escapes, and then can use his takedown ability to get a 3-point lead going into the 3rd, where the Sherando coach probably chooses down...or neutral since it was obvious all day that Zimmerman died out in the 2nd, all day. That way, if Zimmerman gives up a takedown or reversal in the third, he still has the lead. Just my opinion in that, but I think just as many coaches would be for that strategy, as against it. I don't think it makes a coach "wrong."

Not sure you can criticize the coach much anyway. We saw the same kid shake off his coach's decision in an earlier match. I believe it happened more than once. So the Zimmerman kid must have agreed, or he wouldn't have chosen it. I only know if I had ever shaken off my coach, he would have forfeited me, and asked my parents to take me home...for good. Maybe he and the coach have an agreement?

I do think the referees did a poor job of calling stalling. I also agree Zimmerman used the reverse turn to stall all day. As usual, the refs were inconsistent. I also saw the Skyline kid get screwed out of a possible pin in overtime because the ref blew the whistle prematurely.

Overall though, John Champe ran a great tournament. There was plenty of room to be a fan of wrestling, the finals were well done. I, too, loved the spotlight. Congratulations to all our placers. Good luck at states.

[disgusted]

lets review several things posted here in "debacle". i believe this entire board is a debacle, or actually, that most the posters are in here.

1. zimmerman was not stalling, and was obviously the better wrestler. he was getting takedowns at will and was obviously hurting on bottom. i would take a healthy zimmerman over the sherando boy all day long by major decision.

2. strum/smith was decided by a judgment call. ref had to have his back to the clock to make the proper call on backs. maybe time did expire, but since the tournament had decided to hire irresponsible mat tappers, it at that point became a judgment call. former fauquier employee or not, i feel as if he made the fair, and proper judgment. strum was clearly in control most of that match anywho.

3. sun/hulcher is irrelevant. sun and caruso can go blame the ref of the semi finals as the result should have read tingen via fall over hulcher 3:59. maybe then sun would have had a better shot in the consolation rounds. i cant believe how many dumb, thoughtless, hicks booed after the match

4. the only one i may agree with is the 132 match. i can see why coach k may think because he ran at him it was intentional, but raines was in bounds, out of posistion, and running at them isn't illegal. its okay though, raines will be back next week and they will see each other along the line, and raines will get his revenge for sure.

[510308]

Why does Raines need to get revenge? He won this match and the match the week before.

[A Coach]

JDObserver:
Which post is trash talking kids? The only real criticism on here was about refs. Anything about a kid was on how they wrestled. Not about character, work ethic, behavior, or anything personal. Just what they did on the mat.
The comments about Zimmerman and the reverse turk and the injury time are really criticizing the refs, not the kid.

[A Coach]

Once again, who is bashing him? People are only stating what they saw.

Here is what I saw:

An obviously fantastic wrestler (has to be good if he can get all those take downs on a bum knee), who missed almost a month with knee surgery, come back and rack up as many points as he could while he was fresh. Then he did whatever he had to at the end to win. He took as much time as he could to get back to center, he worked the line, he held on to single legs, whatever it took to burn the clock. Also was smart with his injury time. Was he stalling through much of his matches? Of course. Does that make him a bad person? A sinner doomed to eternal damnation? Of course not. Just makes him a smart wrestler doing what he needed to do.
Purposefully stalling at the end of a match is no different than fouling in basketball to try to come back. Teams even foul on purpose if they are up by 3 so the team can't take a 3 point shot, or they foul if the other team won't be going to the line.
The only people that can make it harder to do this is the refs. If I were a ref I would have called stalling on Zimmerman many times after out of bounds situations, while he took the long way around trying to catch his breath. This is not an indictment of the wrestler, but of the ref. Kid's job is to get ready to wrestle, if he doesn't he answers to the ref. Ref's job is to enforce the rules on the books, if he doesn't he answers to...well that was last weeks conversation.

To make a long story longer, no one is bashing kids. Only poor refs.

[Coach K]

Riding hard on top is not stalling and coaches need to start focusing on that. It will serve the wrestler well at the next level. Every college match I watched this season, I saw someone choose top and go for the riding point instead of the escape. Unfortunately, the hardest adjustment wrestlers have when they go to college is getting out from bottom. Make the bottom wrestler earn that point instead punishing the top guy.

[justafan]

My two uneducated points:

1. Jacobs - He got out. Raines stayed on his knees adjusting his headgear. Justice blasted at him and Raines adjusted his height to avoid the take down. Heads clashed. It happens. Any coach worth a nickel would have told their wrestler to do what Jacobs did in that match. Unfortunate that Raines got hurt, but it does happen in a match. Crappy call to give the match to Raines just because the crowd went "OOOOOOOOOHHHHHHH"

2. Zimmerman is a good wrestler, but he has been pulling injury time delays long before he hurt his knee. If you did not notice that, then you haven't watched him for the past several years. He wins. Just not the way I would want my wrestler to win.

[ZimDad]

I wanted to say that Justin Zimmerman , I am very proud of you. What needs to be understood is that his injury took place on the 15th of Dec. , Surgery on the 18th , Returned to wrestle 30th of Jan. , less than 3 days before districts , less than a week and a half before competing in the toughest region in AA. Doctor didn't him to compete till mid Feb. With that being said , you can question his cardio of course. Dont ever question his heart or skills. All these kids have to deal with injuries , we know this , but it's wrestling and it's part of the sport. Until your child or you have to deal with the "coaching" he has had this year , don't dare even bring his "coach" into it. If it wasn't for Stienbacher with Team Impact he wouldn't have been as prepared as he was. Good refs or Bad refs ,doesn't matter as long as they are consistent , then the kid knows what to expect. Finally taking nothing away from Guthridge , he is a good wrestler ,but do you honestly think a half way healthy Zimmerman in the finals that would have been a close match , your crazy.

[ZIMDAD HATER]

Zimdad, you're an idiot. Your sons are lazy. One needs maximum blood/injury time, the other cannot even make weight. Go hide in a hole somewhere. Good wrestlers find a way to win, and for 3 years straight, Justin was unable to do that.

[A Coach]

Aaaand there's the kid bashing. I really hope this was another kid and not an adult. You all have the right to write what you feel and I have a right to not read it. Which I will begin exercising now. Thanks for proving the earlier haters right. I still contend no kid bashing was happening until just now.

[A Coach]

Oh, and Mr. Zimmerman, please do not respond to this ugly troll. You'll only give him what he wants. Please do us all a favor and let this thread die.

[JDObserver]

Sounds like to me there are a lot of haters on Zimmerman. What did he ever do to you? He is a good kid. I am willing to bet these negative comments are coming from people right under his nose who pretend to be so-called friends or team mates.

[Score Correction]

The actualy score was 5-4.

[ZIMDAD HATER]

What else do you call all the stalling and not making weight? It is lazy. I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings, just don't know how else to describe it. Zimdad started by being very offensive, stating Guthridge would be destroyed by a healthy Zimmerman

[justafan]

End of the day guys, as long as the refs are inconsistent with calling stalling, out of bounds, etc., the kids are going to take advantage of it. None of us would fault our kids for using the perimeter wisely to presserve a win. Putting in legs and riding the kids out is done by a whole bunch of "good" wrestlers and stalemates and stalling is called so inconsistently by the refs that it is hard to fault a kid that uses legs and will sit on a lead until the ref steps in and warns them. I have watched a lot of good kids "hang on" to win a match or two, but there are some "unnamed wrestlers" that have quite a reputation for winning the cheap way. If that is what you want for your legacy, then who are we to judge. But, I for one would rather see an aggressive wrestler like Jacobs or Raines that go at it 100% while on the mat than someone that throws in legs and rides to a 1 point victory. Watch the best wrestler in the state, Joey Dance, this weekend. You won't see him take injury time, run to the edge or be content with riding. He works to improve his position the entire match. He will have a legacy to be proud of. As well as 4 state titles.

[YourMistake]

ZIMDAD Hater - you made it so much easier for everyone to figure out who you are - the writing is on the wall - especially when you started throwing off about his little brother - who remind you wasn't even topic of the discussion. You gave yourself away!